The History of Commodore Vision OS

[termite]

So I've done the rounds. I've had a good like around the forums -- read (and replied to) everyone's intros, with great interest -- including Admin: Leo; which also gave me quite a bit of info, including that Leo played a role in having the c64x case built -- and also created Commodore Vision OS. That's all very awesome and interesting, but the reason I actually came to this forum was to see if I could get some kind of timeline and backstory on how everything came together. I am genuinely and sincerely extremely interested in all the minor details.

Hey Leo (you're awesome, by the way) -- what are the chances of getting a really detailed overview of the full story, as you see it?

Some specific questions I have:

- Did Commodore Vision OS start with Linux Mint and then move over to MX Linux? If so, why? *I'm a huge Linux Mint fanboy, by the way.
- I read a comment on Distrowatch saying that Commodore Vision OS is not suitable to use on a work computer, because it sends certain data back to the server, or something to that effect. What's the deal with that? Is that an MX Linux thing? *Probably a touchy question, but I'm sincerely not sure what it all means.
- Why is there 2011 videos on the homepage of this website? Is the OS the same as in 2011 (that also brings me back to the Linux Mint / MX Linux question).
- Was Commodore Vision OS on the back-burner, so to speak for a decade? If so, when was it resurrected, and why?
- Did My Retro Computer contact you to include your OS? If so, that would have been so exciting and validating! Or, are you already in contact with those guys and knew they were going to use your OS from inception of their kickstarter to release a new c64.
- And if you were involved from inception of the kickstarter, what did you have to do to polish up the distro? I'm extremely curious about your process. IT seems like it might have been a huge task for you! Or did you find out at the last minute and then have to scramble to get it cleaned up?
- Are you going to make some new Commodore Vision OS videos?
- Are you in touch or buddies -- or friendly acquaintances with any of the other parties involved in getting all this running?
- Probably a bit personal? But what are you getting out of it? Is anyone giving you a cut?

Please..

Don't hold back with telling your story. I for one will read every single word -- probably twice! or even thrice! -- as I think this is like the story of the century. Don't miss any detail. Join all the dots, even the stuff I didn't know or didn't think to ask. I'm truly interested and I bet a whole heap of other people are too!

Follow up questions:

- How does it feel to have been so involved in the resurrection of the c64 brand?
- What do you envision for the future?

I personal feel like over the next couple of years this forum is going to become super active.

Lastly, thank you so much for all your hard work! I for one am super thankful of your dedication and love for the Commodore brand!

[LeoNigro]

Yikes!! You don't ask for much do ya?
Thanks for you kind words. I'm flattered!
It's people like you who inspire me to keep striving.
How about I answer a different question every couple of days or so.
Sorta make it an ongoing series.
But not tonight.....It's midnight for me.
More to follow.
Cheerio for now.

[termite]

That'll work. It will give you more time to put more detail into each response!

It will be an epic series

[LeoNigro]

Did Commodore Vision OS start with Linux Mint and then move over to MX Linux? If so, why? *I'm a huge Linux Mint fanboy, by the way.

The Genesis of Commodore OS

In the beginning Barry Altman created Commodore USA and the C64x.

Now the C64x hard drive was unformatted and empty, random bits were spread over the platters of the drive, and the license of Commodore was hovering over the company.

And Barry said, “Let there be an installed OS,” and he found an OS. As Barry saw that MacOS was good, so he separated a linux distro from the darkness. Barry called the light “Ubuntu” and the darkness he called “Windows.” And there was downloading, and there was installing—the first day.

And Barry said, “Let there be a collaboration between Ubuntu and Commodore USA.” So Barry made contact with Ubuntu and they effectively told him to pound sand. And it was so. So Barry called upon Mint, and they too told him to pound sand. So Barry called upon Leo, And so was conceived Commodore OS, based on Mint Mate—the second day.

And Leo said, “Let everything Commodore related be gathered in one place, and let an all-singing, all-dancing, fun desktop appear.” And many months later it was so. Leo called the OS a “Vision,” and the carefully curated open source apps became a distro. And Commodore fans saw that it was good.

[termite]

wow, nice format -- shout out to Jesus Christ! King of kings!

That Genesis was quite well written and entertaining

Gotta love the book of Genesis

Oh, so Barry Altman -- the guy that originally made the Commodore64 case wanted to put an OS in there and bee-lined to Linux. Nice.

This is also an interesting choice, as while I've known about emulators for quite some time, I've never actually used any and don't have any ROMs/software, so to speak. Mainly because I couldn't figure out how it all worked. Not that I dedicated any time to trying to figure it out -- because it didn't seem straight forward to me, so I just didn't pursue it. But this is particularly why I am super interested in Commodore OS, because I know (from Retro Recipes video) that it's all set up and ready to go. Bonus!

Now I have more questions!

- I'm very interested to know how you came to know Barry Altman?
- And if Linux Mint told Barry to pound sand, why did you still go with Linux Mint?
- Did Linux Mint come around at all, once they saw what you had created?

I have heaps more questions, but I'll wait to you cross those bridges in your epic story. For now I'm content with the above questions, based on what you've divulged to far.

[LeoNigro]

Well, Ubuntu and Mint were probably a little nicer than that.
I mean they both were fine with their distros being pre-installed on the C64x of course, but they didn't want to be bothered doing anything Commodore specific or unique.
Ubuntu came on two DVDs that were included with C64x machines and is featured on the back of the original C64x boxes.

As for emulators set up and ready to go.....it is kinda sorta.....
We don't actually have rights to distribute the original legal ROMs (yet?).
Therefore, there are open source alternatives included graciously provided by the Mega65 team and the AROS project.
I can't thank them both enough.

Most Amiga demos that are included will run with the AROS 68k ROM that is included.
Only C64 Cartridge games, some of which are included, will run with the C65 open source project ROM.
I think I set up most of the keysets in the emulators, but if you have controllers, unfortunately this needs to be configured manually.

However, I suggest you look at the top menu option:
System --> Commodore OS --> Cloanto Commodore ROM Setup

That will provide you with instructions to follow to obtain C64(free) and Amiga ROMs(low cost) from Cloanto.
Setting up the C64 and other 8-bit ROMs is child's play.
The Amiga ROMs, not so much, as if you don't already have them, you need to install Amiga Forever on a Windows PC and the get the files from there as instructed. But once you do, you can see how easy Peri did it once he had the ROM files.
Just drag and drop them to appropriate folder, run the aforementioned menu option.
You might also need to configure the Amiga emulator(FS-UAE) a little bit.
You'll see it in the Applications --> Commodore Emulators --> Amiga Emulator (GUI)

[LeoNigro]

I read a comment on Distrowatch saying that Commodore Vision OS is not suitable to use on a work computer, ....

In the Terms and Conditions prior to installation, I made the disclaimer not to run your business on this OS, and if you do, don't blame me if there is a data breach. I would say that regardless of the security, however as one of the aims was to make the user experience more akin to the single user 80s desktops, one or more aspects of traditional linux security were decreased slightly for the "Commodore" username (which you should all have installed with ) to enhance the experience and ease of use. The Commodore user is effectively an admin of the computer.
If you are really worried about security (and I really think you shouldn't be that much as a determined hacker can get you regardless of what you do) you'll just want to change your Commodore user password, and add a new user and run under that new user and password.
It's gonna prompt that new user for a password left right and center, and maybe break some things, and therefore you'll lose the will to live.....
but there's really nothing stopping you from using Commodore OS, as compared to any other Linux, as a work OS in your workplace.
You're far more likely to get hacked via a zero-day kernel vulnerability than anything I've done and they find those all the time.

.... because it sends certain data back to the server, or something to that effect. What's the deal with that? Is that an MX Linux thing? *Probably a touchy question, but I'm sincerely not sure what it all means.

Yeah, I saw that and thought, "What the heck is he talking about?".......then it hit me........COS1.0 (12 years ago) used to call home on startup.
That's what is being alluded to in the in the terms and conditions which are practically the same, bar replacing Commodore USA with MyRetroComputer.
As the COS2 scripts are mostly unaltered from COS1 I only just recently discovered that it is indeed attempting to log data online to this day, but the location it is attempting to post data to is dead, and it bugs out early anyway due to deprecated commands, so not to worry.
It never sent anything personal, and it never tracked anything else you may do. Just when you booted Commodore OS.
(you really think Windows and other distros aren't doing that and possibly more?
Heck, MX-Linux probably has some hidden script calling them from COS I haven't found yet)

It used to send things like your OS Version, kernel version, Commodore OS update, machine cpu and graphics hardware, and your ip address so we could potentially determine what country you were running from.
But you know what? I don't recall ever really looking at the logs other than debugging that it worked.
It all came about because Barry wanted to know how many people were actually using COS on a regular basis to justify any further time being spent on it. I thought fair enough and I must admit I was curious too. But all that is all in the past.

There is absolutely no user data colletion of any kind I or anyone else has access to from COS2.0.

Edit: I wonder if someone would kindly re-iterate in a review on Distrowatch, that the author of COS2.0 categorically denies that any personal data is being collected.
https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distr ... =Commodore
The OS got docked a point for this unnecessarily.

[LeoNigro]

Why is there 2011 videos on the homepage of this website?

There are 2011 videos on the homepage because I'm lazy and I also get distracted too easily.
Well, actually they're there because there aren't that many to choose from online and these were the best.
I think I'll be changing demo videos out for the RetroRecipes video. If you see any others that are appealing let me know.
The videos that are there from 2011, at the very least, had the graphics acceleration running and sound available, which is a far cry from every other COS demo I've seen. The effects and software and most of the looks in COS2.0 are practically indistinguishable from COS1.0 so I saw no need to really change those videos out.

Are you going to make some new Commodore Vision OS videos?

Every time I sit down to make a video there are like a dozen other more urgent things that spring up, so I never get around to it.
And if I'm not dealing with the more important stuff I feel guilty if I'm doing non-essential things.
Honestly, I can't even bring myself to sit down at a computer and play video games any more for the sheer guilt of all the other stuff that needs doing.

I even thought I was going to start a YT channel at one stage but came to realise that is a lot of work, so we'll see.
The channel which is set up is called "Keeping up with the Commodore"
and would be available here: https://www.youtube.com/@AussieAmigan
In the first episode I wanted to demonstrate installing dual booting with Windows but I can't seem to get that working as others have.
I have video files all around the place waiting to be pieced together.....but no result.
It's easy to get hung up on one concept and not progress because you don't want to compromise.
This is kinda what made COS2.0 a little harder to make as compromises needed to be made all over the place.

Is the OS the same as in 2011 (that also brings me back to the Linux Mint / MX Linux question).

As much as I love the current COS2.0 main widget theme, I do still think the COS1 main widget theme was arguably a little better, as it had shinier 3d styling. The COS1.0 theme had clearly been designed by a no compromise, professional graphic artist.
If it wasn't for incompatibilities with the newer version of Mate, the original theme would be present in COS2.0.
The theme incompatibility was the main reason why COS2.0 was held up, and a non-starter for years.
The other problem was the Avant dock used in COS1.0, which was rock solid and beautiful, is no longer developed and incompatible with Mate today.
I therefore endeavoured to theme/configure the Cairo dock to look practically the same, but not exactly.
The Cairo dock which took its place has like a thousand options, but is quite flaky during configuration.
Play with the Cairo themes at your peril. You'll probably never get back to the original look or theme.

My reasons for the desktop OS choices were three fold:
1. Gnome2 uses a very traditional(some say retro) desktop paradigm, mostly similar to Amiga OS and it just feels more natural to me.
I simply loved the way Gnome2 handled the desktop and didn't want to change. I guess that makes me old school.
I believe the Gnome2 era was the pinnacle of linux desktops, in a similar way many feel about Windows 7.
The schism between Gnome2, Gnome3 and Unity happened around the same time COS was being put together so it wasn't clear what tech was going to be the victor anyway. Gnome2 and many of its libraries and base apps, had to be renamed (they chose "Mate"), in order for the Gnome3 codebase to progress without an overhaul. Gnome3 has an entirely different desktop paradigm and eventually Ubuntu gave up on its Unity desktop, which ironically did the opposite of create unity. A bit like that XKCD skit about standards (https://xkcd.com/927/). Other, now popular, desktops were also born from that schism, like Cinnamon for instance, and I'm sure a bunch of others came to the fore all with their particular functionalities and resource usage ideas.

2. As I've mentioned before, I used to love applying Amiga Workbench mods. I remember applying things like shadowing and various other widgets that made the desktop look awesome even back in the Workbench 1.x days. I absolutely detest flatness in a desktop interface.
So, Compiz comes out, the ultimate desktop mod, maybe a year or so prior to COS1, and I'm blown away, thinking, surely this is the way desktops will advance, this is the way I would want them to advance......Scifi shows regularly demonstrate advanced desktops like this....but alas no. So here we sit, even 12 years ago, with oodles of dormant graphical power and memory and most desktops were and continue to be stuck in 2D with a vengeance. All because Linux desktop developers have OCD fantasies about minimising each and every running resource like we're still running single core 16-bit machines!!! The desktop might as well be a web page (not to say you can't do 3d in a webpage, but most sites don't).
So, given my love of desktop mods, and my stalwart desire to retain the Gnome2 like desktop paradigm I grew up with, marrying the two for Commodore OS was a no-brainer.

3. Linux Mint back in 2010 made a Mate version that was popular, and had the best support, so understandably I based Commodore OS 1.0 on that.
MX-Linux is currently the most popular linux distro and actively encourages respins, so I made Commodore OS 2.0 based on that.
Commodore OS 2.0 is vastly different to MX-Linux's base offerings or any other of its respins, and is based on Debian.
The installer on Debian is a nightmare and MX-Linux has a far simpler one that better facilitates customisation for your distro.
So a no-brainer for me. God bless MX-Linux!!! It made my life easier.

[LeoNigro]

Was Commodore Vision OS on the back-burner, so to speak for a decade? If so, when was it resurrected, and why?

I had semi-serious thoughts about bringing it back in the last decade or so.
I'd see the odd comment here and there that people appreciated it and would think about it for a while.
Then there would be more pressing real life tasks that came to the fore, so I never started.

Did My Retro Computer contact you to include your OS? If so, that would have been so exciting and validating! Or, are you already in contact with those guys and knew they were going to use your OS from inception of their kickstarter to release a new c64.

Sean from MyRetroComputer reached out to me about the possibility of bringing Commodore OS back.
I was just stoked that people remembered it even existed, let alone liked it.
Sean was gracious enough to send me one of his new keyboards, a beautiful white VIC-20 case, and it was wonderful to see that my baby had been resurrected, and was going to come out in so many different flavours, in a way I had only dreamed about.
I knew then that I had to place a very high priority on helping him in any way I could.
So, I had to relearn everything I did in 2010, and also make sure the same approach was even viable, as most of the tech stack, as it turned out, had been deprecated.

IIRC Sean and I went through a few OS development iterations.
I remember I had a very early beta with most of the things working for a show he had an exhibit at.
The positive feedback Sean passed on from people who had experienced it at the show, motivated me to expend more effort.
I can now imagine what Michael-Angelo felt painting the Sistine Chapel, and the Pope continually asking "So when's it going to be finished?"
(I am associating with the pressure, not comparing my talents to Michael Angelo. )
Not that Sean was really on my case or anything....I just felt bad as it was taking longer than I'd hoped and I was continually letting him down with my estimates. It all looks easy until you hit that inevitable snag.

And if you were involved from inception of the kickstarter, what did you have to do to polish up the distro? I'm extremely curious about your process. IT seems like it might have been a huge task for you! Or did you find out at the last minute and then have to scramble to get it cleaned up?

I didn't have anything to do with the kickstarter. That was all Sean's work. I was only focused on polishing up the distro.
I kept running into issues, and after missing a few deadlines, I made a promise to release it in 2023.
Eventually, the last piece of the puzzle came together so I just managed to sneak the release into 2023.
I was relieved to get that off my chest (until the next version).
I consider COS in beta, because I think there's a lot of room for improvement. So, always in beta.
I've got plans a plenty.....but....things take time, and God laughs at your plans.

As for it being a huge task, or major undertaking, well, it depends on what you consider a major undertaking.
I could always have done less and said I was done of course. The string is ultimately as long as you say it is. (you can quote me)
I've also faced far larger projects and obstacles in my various roles developing software in my IT career of 25+ years.
I'm also currently developing a SASS product, that is quite ambitious, as a startup, that began development even before my time with Commodore USA, and I intend to release a MVP soon. In fact Barry was eager to help me with this pursuit, that is now at least a decade overdue.
However, I'm getting the impression already, that there will be much distraction in the coming months.

[LeoNigro]

I'm very interested to know how you came to know Barry Altman?

I was a regular on the AmigaWorld forum, eagerly waiting for OS4 and the Amiga ONE (they were taking forever to eventuate), and there was talk on the forum about some guy using the Commodore brand (I later learned, to flush the unknown license holders out). IIRC He came into the forum all bluster and caused quite a stir. I sent an e-mail to him regarding the concerns of the retro community about his brand usage. He liked my insights, and after a few e-mails, we started speaking on the phone (Melbourne, Australia to Fort Lauderdale, Florida). We bonded over our passion for the brand. I helped him formulate a strategy for obtaining the Commodore license proper and was with him every step of the way during the process. And so we entered into a partnership. His idea was OEM brand existing Chinese computer keyboards with the Commodore label. My idea was to recreate the C64 as a computer for every day usage. Guess which sold more?

And if Linux Mint told Barry to pound sand, why did you still go with Linux Mint?

I don't believe in cutting one's nose off to spite one's face.
In reality COS1 was only tangentially Linux Mint, just as Linux Mint was only tangentially Ubuntu.
COS1 bore no resemblance to either and could have been based on any Linux really.
COS2 also bears little resemblance to anything MX-Linux offers, or even existing respins.
You would have to look at their DNA(package list) to figure out what got what from where.

Did Linux Mint come around at all, once they saw what you had created?

I'm not sure if it was even a blip on their radar to be honest. They were already popular so why would they care.